To Kenny

First, thank you for thinking. You bring up some great points, all those about foreigners I will ignore, since I did not specifically speak on that issue (2,3,5) Our support of Israel was merely used as an example of when an individuals morals, may not support those that are being pursued by a government. We could change this to birth control, gay marriage, gun control, pollution taxes, etc.

I liked your point on change occurring over time. It was the strongest, that spoke directly to my original post. Change does happen over time, and that works out great. But we would need to decide why having an extensive and intrusive government in the first place is best. If I were to support a large government and then we decided that it changes over time, then great we agree. So why, I ask, is a government needed in the first place?

On the issue of slavery. Physical pain is one type of implication for slavery, but why would a master beat and destroy his property. Slavery may now exist in the form of mindlessness, of disempowerment. It is easier to convince a man he is happy being a slave, and to go a long with it, then to constantly fight or beat him. So we can be slaves without being beaten. And no I don’t have to agree, no one is forcing me. But morally what is the difference between the man who pays for the gun which he knows will be used to murder and the murderer himself. To me the moral difference is all relative. If I believe killing is right then either person is morally in the right. If I think that murder is wrong then both are in the wrong. (1 and 4)

My basic premise is that governments should not make moral decisions for men. They should not have the ability to choose how my money and thus my time is allocated. If I want to support battered women for the YWCA for 12 months out of the year, I should not go to jail. (or if I want to support the tobacco industry as a lobbyist) They do not have the necessary information to make this choice, nor is it better for society for them to make this choice. And yes I do want to change man, this takes time. I want man to realize that they are empowered and capable of affecting the world. That they can gain joy out of helping others (this is deep in us, as we are all societal creatures). I want them to look inside, to look at their neighbors and family, not the halls of the government for a solution.

As the week must continue, and I must go kill people, work for the government, and become rich, I will be unable to respond, so till next Sunday I bid you all a fair evening.

To Ian

You some logical flaws, mainly ad hominem (at the man). If you wish to discuss ideas, dicuss ideas. There were way too many references to me, in your repsonse. And for the record. You aren't informed enough about what I do to asses whether my job was created by the government or not. (this is also an oversimplification and an overgenralization) Secondly, you aren't informed enough about my dad's salary to decide if he is rich. And nor are you informed about the reasons why I took the position I have to make inferences on my motivations.

Sure our current situation is connected to past decisions and its good to have a moral stance. Thanks for the insight, but I implore you to think more.

Please all who read these entries, do not fall victim to the false sense of thinking. Beacuse you have taken logic to the first step does not complete your journey. It creates a man who is led by arrogance, who believes he has the right answer becuase he has 'thought.' A moral position is something that men in power often come to far too easily. Arrogance, is thinking that we know the motivations of others, that we know whattheir morals should be, that we know how they should act. My original post may be understood in light of this exchange of words between Ian and I.

To think and come to a conclusion without understanding is arrogance. It inflicts more of us than we would like to admit, a sympton of arrogance. To understand another is impossible. I can not, and never will see the world through someone elses eyes. To give power to arrogant people leads to Fascism. They think they represent the people, they think they know what is best, they think they know the right moral position. They are wrong, not beacuse of what they believe, but beacuse they simply assume their beliefs represent anyone at all.

I lied: Response to John Part Two

Short and sweet... bc i'm in atown visiting family and I don't want to waste anyones time.

John, If our gov. wasn't in place to create jobs like yours you wouldn't have to pay 30% of your salary to them nor would you have a job. You could just as easily be a lazy bum like Amos out in Tana and we would still love you just the same but you want to be rich like your daddy so you got a big rich mans job in Boston. Two, I agree with Carmin there is no excuse for wiping out another country, not for oil in Iraq, not for two fucking isreali soldiers in Lebanon, never. I agree with kenny too, our situation in the middle east is a direct result of generations before us specifically President Truman who chose to back an independent nation within the boards of Palestine. They chose a moral stance on a complex issue just as we all have to choose a moral stance on complex issues or run the risk of forever riding the fence like John seems to believe will save our gov. And country.

John thanks for thinking about it all... Its a nice break from bashing myself for being a slut and Carmin begging for friends.

Kenny's Thoughts on John's Bitching about Carmin's Views

1. YOU EQUATE YOURSELF TO A SLAVE ONE MORE TIME I'M GOING TO DRIVE TO BOSTON, RIP YOUR HEAD OFF AND SHIT DOWN YOUR NECK. Change DOES happen in a democratic republic. It just doesn't happen on an individual's timeframe, thereby looking like its not moving to an individual. Look up the phrase "Throw the bastards out" I could say that this works, since a main point in your post has to do with how our government takes your money to fuck other people (non-citizens). If you were a slave they would be beating and whipping YOU instead, since there would be NOTHING you could do about it.

2. Foreign poeple don't vote in our elections, therefore they have no voice in our government. This is why we can and do wage war at them. The type of government doesn't matter. (see #3) The reason we support Isreal with our money is due to the fact that the generations before ours wanted to. If everyone in our generation wanted to go to pluto, guess what...

3. Governments have always treated foreigners poorly. It is a fact of life. The US is NO DIFFERENT; whether we have a republic, pure democracy, anarachy, monarachy, or vigilantistic society; if at any point a group of people get a massive amount of military power in respect to another people, persecution and war happens. This is human nature, it exists across all time, at all scales of people, and across all government types. (see American Indians)

4. You are in no way, shape or form forced to agree with government morals, see #1. You will however be pulled along with the crowd if you don't stand up to them.

5. A man with a gun can tell another man without one what is right. This is due to the fact that this situation reduces the choices for the powerless man down to two: Follow, or Death. Though this is vastly oversimplified, the powerless still have that choice. Obviously, if the command is: dance like a monkey, very few would choose death. If the command is: give up your liberty, some would choose death (see Patrick Henry), but others WOULD give it up, and that is their choice to make, no force on Earth can stop them.

6. The big problem with #5 is that it doesn't work when applied to nations. As an example, if nation A attacks Nation B with the intent on wiping them out, enslaving the people, and taking their land, you can bet that there will be people who would fight against this, and people who wouldn't care or would try to run. If, say for whatever reason, 50% of the nation chooses to fight, but 80% is needed to defend Nation B successfully, then the entire nation gets wiped out as a whole. This makes Nations under threat (South Korea, Taiwan, Isreal, etc...) institute mandatory military service. And nations not under constant threat (US) spend money on military technology and whatnot to overcome this problem. We term this survival. Once a nation has accumlated enough military power, see #3.

7. Government is never the optimum entity to deal with anything, with the exception of things that require a singleton's response (war, civil rights, etc). This is due to the fact that humans are not the optimum creature to deal with life, as we scare easily and are disconnected too much from other humans. Bitching about the government won't change anything at all, you must change humans. Good luck with that.

All in all, welcome to life, get to work, complain in public forums about your priviledged, overfed, educated white american problems.

kdb

John's thoughts on Carmin's thoughts on the WORLD

I don’t think this is blog etiquette, but since I have not looked over the blog in a while and I would have liked to respond to Carmin’s “Life” post I am doing so now. And it is still applicable given that its always applicable.

Carmin wrote, “Israel bombs palestine and is continually committing atrocities on the level of long-term genocide but because it is an "american client state" as referred to by Chomsky, we don't do anything about it... corporations run the world and spend billions on ridiculously invalid studies to "prove" that global climate change is not necessarily so human-influenced, and corporations run the media so this is constantly pumped out to the duped masses who remain duped masses...”

And to this I respond:
If people had the 'right' information do you think they would even give a fuck. The problem is that people who are think they know what is 'right', have power and act. We vote for people who think they know what is right. Hence they wouldn’t be running if they didn’t think they had the answer. There is not right, there is no wrong. How arbitrary for any of us to assume we know what is right, that we know this war is wrong, that we know the world is in trouble. Arbitrary passions lead to arbitrary deaths.

As Mark Twain wrote, "It not what you don't know that gets you in trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so." This can be applied to the individual or to a collective consciousness. This is why it is beneficial to reduce the power and extent of the government. Let the individual be arrogant, it’s hard for them to start wars. But when a country that spends close to 400 billion a year on their military, thinks they know when it just ain’t so we can get into a whole lot of trouble. I come across people who think that they know what is right and wrong. They think the government should provide (fill in the blank), because (fill in the blank) is right. It’s these thoughts that have given the government power. So to me its black or white. A person either wants people to be forced to believe their view or they don’t.

And yes this is a force of beliefs. If I do not think Israel is in the right, then I still have to pay taxes that buy weapons and subsidize the Israel’s army. I have no choice in the matter, its either pay my taxes or go to jail. This is the government forcing me to accept and participate in acting on certain distinct morals. I personally have come to the conclusion that I do not want the government to force me, my family, nor my friends to participate in actions of moral questions (of which all actions are) that they do not believe.

The action of taxation hasn’t simply made me monetarily support the governments cause. My time has had to be allocated to earn that money. I am taxed at about the 30% rate, 30% of my yearly earnings are made in 4 months. If the U.S. spends about 20% of that on military expenditures, then that’s a little less than one month of work (we’ll call it 3 weeks). I am not allowed to choose how the proceeds of these 3 weeks are allocated. They are allocated to military expenditures.

Who else in history was forced to give the proceeds of their time working to someone else? Slaves. They were required to give the proceeds of their labor to their master. For 3 weeks of the year I am a slave to military expenditures. I have no say in how this money is spent, nor can I choice not to give it the government (they send you to jail). This is the coercive power of the state.

Some may argue that well, people are too stupid to take care of themselves and they don’t care to take care of their neighbors. Thus, we need the government to take care of them. To look into this, we can assume that the government is just using the money to ‘take care of’ people. Social services. There are a number of flaws in this argument. First, it is arbitrary to think that this is the right view. This is on two levels. It may not be that it is ‘right’ to take care of anybody, to help anyone. And it may be the wrong view that people are incapable of taking care of themselves or do not care. You only see what you look for. If I think people are not taking care of themselves and don’t care that’s what I will find. Secondly, the government may not be the best entity to provide this socially desirable goal (if it is desirable). Non-profits, community groups, churches etc, may be a better method. They have a greater incentive to do a good job, self-fulfillment and internal happiness. (Instead of the governments incentive structure to get reelected and spend money this year for a greater budget next year.) This community groups are closer to the issues, have a better understanding, through involvement gain a greater perspective of what is needed, and individuals can gain happiness. More personal fulfillment may be possible from serving in your community rather than paying taxes and voting every few years.

In summary. The government gets its power through coercive taxation. This taxation forces us to agree with the morals of the government and enslaves us to pay for (participate) in their goals. No one person can tell another what is ‘right,’ it may be impossible to know and/or impossible to understand someone else’s paradigm. Social service goals may be accomplished through civil society, adding to personal fulfillment/empowerment, and may be more effective.

If you read the news or have in the past and know what is/has happened. I encourage you to think about the true source of conflict in our world. Conflict is a result of power in the hands of a few, it is a result of the coercive power governments have to tax their citizens for military spending. The first step to reduce conflict is to disable its source. This source is not disagreement (although that has and always will result in murders), it is the extreme power the governments have been given.

Rival Drivel

There is a new fierce competition for the Blogtronbot's Family Reunion blog.

http://proyectopuentes.blogspot.com/

Check it out if you have any interest in anything I have ever done that is good for this world.

HOLY SHIT!!

Dude, this is incredible!! I knew Katie was always busy, but NOBEL FUCKING PRIZE?!?!?!?!?


Katie's Interview

fat knees and cankles

I got stug 3 times on my ankles and they swelleded up real fat like and gave me cankles then i got knee surgery and i got a really fat knee, luckly the knee dosnt feel that bad and i can already put weight on it so every thing is good. im boardddddddddddd and miss my amos, and hate jeb. o

Katie's First Commercial

Hey yall, just recorded this off the TV. Look's like Katie's on her way to the movies!



She also said that being teleported is like a thousand orgasms screaming in the night rain of Alcupulco.

yep

As For Me...

I'm pulling for the Blue Jays, I think they're Montrealan. I like their immaculate booter.

embrace

boys, the missoula reunion needs to be confirmed. late august sounds good. dave, kenny, ian, jeb otter...i may have a car available to drive out to montana. the family can't be apart for much longer. our powers must combine again soon. i feel the energy from the crystal lattice that ira and amos have been harnessing in montana and we must all follow the glowing lights emiting from deep within the crystal structure.
otter, what the fuck man. that is the shittiest thing that could happen to you. i'll send you something while you're recovering if you give me your address.
well i'm back in atlanta. just got back last night. gonna figure out some easy but well paying work for the next couple of months.
also, jaye and i are good...she is done in oregon sometime late august or mid-september. i may continue on to oregon after the reunion.
look for a bell sighting in asheville soon boys. i'll call you punks soon. dave, tell katie to get ready for me.
addition...i got 3 dollars on france for the cup...i'll give you 2 to 1 odds carmen. these frenchmen will not cower like the frenchmen of the world wars. 1 to zero...final score.
embrace the flux and patients are my motos now.
kickin it
db

Move to Chile

For all you kayak sluts, you need to move to chile this next season, this is the Ventesquero, and it is like this for like 20km, the big drop in the center of the pic is like 20ft. By far the gnar gnariest river ive ever seen. jeb your a bitch. 

Otter dun fud up bi tim

The other night i left the bar, walked across town to my car, and proceded to drive home, 2 miles from my house a deer jumped out of the woods, i swerved to miss it and conviently into a telephone pole, the pole was cracked in two and still standing but in the middle of the road, i drove to my parents, woke my dad up, called the cops, and went back, where i got a interigated by the cop, he gave my a sobriety test and said that i passed it perfect but i failed the breathalizer, so mr otter is without a license and with many bills, anyway depending weather this costs me $10,000 or $15,000 i still want to go the the reunion in MT. Also i am getting knee surgery(thanks to beefsocks) on the 13th so ill be layed up for a while, send flowers and money to the help otter get out of debt fund. other than thAT im doing good.